Uncontroled Roll

3 weeks 2 days ago - 3 weeks 18 hours ago #885 by dynamics
Uncontrolled Roll was created by dynamics
I am curious to know all possible failure scenarios for which b737 may rolls uncontrollably once autopilot is engaged  when bank angle limit is selected on mode control panel?
Last edit: 3 weeks 18 hours ago by Mark.

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3 weeks 19 hours ago #886 by Mark
Replied by Mark on topic Uncontroled Roll
I had to read that link several times.

This is my opinion only..... I doubt there was anything wrong with the aircraft. The crew engaged the auto-pilot way beyond their pitch range and well below the proper airspeed.

The captain repeatedly tried to engage the auto-piiot when the aircraft was basically "out of control".

The article mentions CWS or Control Wheel Steering. I have never seen a pilot use this mode on any aircraft. The system will drop from CMD or Command Mode to CWS if there is too much force on the control wheel.

My guess that this guy was so desperate that the auto-pilot wasn't correcting the aircraft that he was turning and pushing on the yoke until the auto-pilot just dropped off.

Why was he trying the auto-pilot in the first place? He has an aircraft out of pitch range. He's way beyond roll limits. HE SHOULD OF BEEN "FLYING" THE AIRCRAFT TO CORRECT BOTH ISSUES.

The ailerons were functioning. The article stated they returned to neutral during a hard bank. Why didn't they position themselves to correct the roll issue? He didn't do it and the auto-pilot was on/off so many times it basically shouldn't even count in this whole sequence.

From beginning to end..... this was crew error. Reliance on automation in a situation that required human skill.

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2 weeks 6 days ago #887 by dynamics
Replied by dynamics on topic Uncontroled Roll
History of Flight
In the following history, comments originally in Arabic are translated in to
English and appear in italics. A complete transcription of the CVR is contained in
Exhibit C, CVR Group Factual Report
• Flash Airlines flight 604 Boeing 737-300 scheduling to depart Sharm El
Sheikh at 0230 GMT 0430 local time.
• From Cockpit Voice Recorder information the first officer and observer were
in the Cockpit at 02:14:30 the Captain was in the cockpit at 02:18:14.
• Load information and flight information were exchanged between the Flight
Deck and Cabin Attendants.
• At 02:18:58 before start check list was requested by the Captain and was
read by the F/O and responded by Captain and F/O completed at 02:20:17.
• The Cleared to Start checklist was carried out at 02:32:19, the After Start
checklist at 02:35:36, and the Taxi checklist at 02:39:55.
• The ATC clearance was delivered at 02:38:15 and read back by F/O as
• ATC Flash 604 destination Cairo as filed climb initially flight level 140 1673
on the squawk.
• F/O Our clear to destination via flight plan route 140 initially 1673 on the
squawk Flash 604 we have total pax135 God willing.
• 02 h 39 min 54 s, A/T engaged (through the whole flight),
• The Take Off checklist was completed at 02:40:05.
• 02 h 40 min 38 s, F/O : “Flash 604 ready for departure”,
• 02 h 40 min 46 s, TWR : “Flash 604 surface wind 280/13 kts left turn to
intercept radial 306 clear for take off 22R”,
• 02 h 40 min 55 s, F/O : “Clear for take off runway 22R with left turn to
establish 306 Sharm VOR, our Flash 604 clear for take off”,
• 02 h 41 min 19 s, F/O : “Left turn to establish radial 306”,
• 02 h 41 min 30 s, Captain : “Initially 140”,
• 02 h 41 min 34 s, Captain : “Confirm initially 140”,
• 02 h 41 min 35 s, F/O : “And Flash 604 confirm to the left to establish 306”,
• 02 h 41 min 40 s, Captain : “Initial 140”,
• 02 h 41 min 43 s, TWR : “Inch Allah”,
• 02 h 41 min 44 s, F/O : “And initially 140”,
• Take off was initiated at 02:41:59 with standard call outs.
• At time 02:42:02 TOGA mode engaged and then disengaged at 02:42:04.
• Aileron movements during T/O roll and lift off were consistent with crosswind.
• 02 h 42 min 10 s, F/O : “Take off power set speed building up 80 kts throttle
• 02 h 42 min 26 s to 02 h 42 min 33 s, Take off phase, Co-pilot : “V1 rotate,
positive rate”,
• 02 h 42 min 36 s, Captain : “Gears up”,
• 02 h 42 min 38 s, gears are up (FDR), CAS 169,5 kts
• 02 h 42 min 43 s, Captain : “400 heading select”,
• 02 h 42 min 44 s, F/O : “400 heading select” (FDR heading select engaged),
• At time 02:42:48, Captain requested "Level Change"
• At time 02:42:49 the F/O announced "Level Change, MCP speed, N1 armed
• At time 02:42:59 the F/O announced "one thousand". At the same time, ATC
reported the departure time and confirmed left turn clearance. The clearance
was acknowledged by the F/O. This was the last ATC transmission from the
flight crew. The aircraft rolled to 20ْ left bank and began a climbing turn.
02 h 43 min 00 s, Captain : “N1 speed 210 flaps 1”,
• 02 h 43 min 04 s, Captain : “Left turn”,
• 02 h 43 min 05 s, TWR : “Flash 604 airborne time 44 when you ready to the
left to intercept 306 radial report on course”, (Aircraft at 1268 ft),
• 02 h 43 min 11 s, Captain : “Left turn”, (1528 ft, beft)
• 02 h 43 min 12 s, F/O : “Roger when ready inch Allah”,
• 02 h 43 min 18 s, F/O : “left turn to establish 306 Sharm VOR”, (maximum
recorded left roll is 21,8° within that phase at 02:43:21),
• The turn continued as the magnetic heading approached 140ْ (at an altitude of
3600 ft), at which point the bank angle decreased to approximately 5ْ left
• At time 02:43:19, EgyptAir Flight (MSR 227), a flight from Hurgada inbound to
Sharm el-Sheikh called ATC. Conversations between ATC and MSR 227
continue for approximately 60 seconds.
• 02 h 43 min 21 s, MCP selected speed recorded 219 kts,
• 02 h 43 min 23 s, Captain : “Flaps up”,
• 02 h 43 min 33 s, Selected heading recorded 106,8°,
• 02 h 43 min 35 s, Co-pilot : “Flaps up no light”, (2196 ft, CAS 209 kts, Hdg
168, Pitch 10.9°, Roll 20,74° left),
• At time 02:43:37, the Captain called for the After Takeoff checklist. There
was not audible response from the F/O.
• 02 h 43 min 53 s, CAS 216,5 kts decreasing (reached a minimum value of
184.5 Kts at 2:44:23 and then started increasing),
• At time 02:43:55, the Captain called "Autopilot". There was no immediate
response from any crew member. (3124 ft, CAS 216 kts, Hdg 142.7, Pitch
15.3°, Roll 7.7° left)
• At time 02:43:58, the Captain stated "Not yet".(3320 ft, CAS 213.5 kts, Hdg
141.3°, Pitch 16.3°, Roll 6.6° left)
• At time 02:43:59, the FDR recorded the autopilot was engaged, and that the
roll mode transition to CWS-R mode. This transition would have resulted in
loss of Heading Select Mode (3392 ft, CAS 212 kts, Hdg 140.6°, Pitch 17.5°,
Roll 6.6° left)
• At time 02:44:00, the F/O stated "Autopilot in command sir". (3468 ft, CAS
209.5 kts, Hdg 140.2°, Pitch 18.4°, Roll 6.6° left)
• At time 02:44:01, the captain stated "EDEELO", (an Arabic exclamation
expressing a sharp response of some kind). At the same time, the FDR
records momentary aileron surfaces movements. The right aileron deflected
to 7.2 degree TEU for one second
• At time 02:44:02, the CVR records the autopilot disconnect warning and the
FDR recorded the autopilot disengaged. The aural warning lasted for 2.136
seconds. (3624 ft, CAS 207 kts, Hdg 139.9°, Pitch 19.3°, Roll 5.6° left)
• During this time, an increase in pitch and decay in airspeed were observed
• At time 02:44:05, the Captain requested heading select. (3880 ft, CAS 203
kts, Hdg 139.5°, Pitch 20.5°, Roll 0.0° left)
• At time 02:44:07, the F/O states "heading select" and the FDR records
heading select mode engaging. This mode transition would have resulted in
the reappearance of the flight director roll command bar. During this
sequence, the aircraft’ left-bank continued to decrease at a slow rate until the
airplane was briefly wings level. (4056 ft, CAS 199 kts, Hdg 139.5°, Pitch
19.8°, Roll 0.35° right)
• Beginning at this time, the FDR records a series of aileron motions that
command a right bank and subsequent right turn.
• At time 02:44:18, the captain states "See what the aircraft did". At this point
the aircraft bank angle was approximately 12° to the right. (4824 ft, CAS
186.5 kts, Hdg 149.4°, Pitch 15.4°, Roll 12.6° right)
02 h 44 min 23 s, CAS 184,5 kts and will increase to the end of the flight,
• 02 h 44 min 25 s, last recorded speed selected 220 kts,
• At time 02:44:27, the F/O states "Turning right, sir". Three seconds later, the
captain responses "What". At the same time, bank angle is 17° to the right
and the FDR records the aileron motions to increase the right bank (5172 ft,
CAS 186 kts, Hdg 160.6°, Pitch 13.3°, Roll 16.8° right)
• At time 02:44:31, the F/O states "Aircraft is turning right". One second later,
the captain response "Ah"
• At time 02:44:35, the Captain states "Turning right”, at this point, the bank
angle was 23.6° to the right (5396 ft, CAS 192 kts, Hdg 174.7°, Pitch 11,7°
Roll 23,5° right), last selected heading 84,9°)
• At time 02:44:37, the Captain states – “how turning right” (5436 ft, CAS 195
kts, Hdg 179.6, Pitch 10.7°, Roll 27.7°)
• At time 02:44:41, the Captain states "OK come out". (5468 ft, CAS 202.5 kts,
Hdg 194.7°, Pitch 6.5°, Roll 41.8° right) At this point, the bank angle was
slightly more than 40° right bank and the FDR records the ailerons returning
to just beyond neutral, the high right roll rate stopped and a momentary left
roll rate occurred resulting in a slight decrease in the right bank from 43.2° at
2:44:40 to 41.8° at 2:44:41 before additional aileron movements command an
increase in the right bank.
• At time 02:44:41.5, the F/O states "Overbank. The bank angle at this time
was just beyond 50° right bank. The airplane reaches its maximum altitude of
just over 5460 feet.
• At time 02:44:41.7, the Captain states "Autopilot". He repeats the statement
at 02:44:43.4.
• At time 02:44:44, the F/O states "Autopilot in command". No autopilot
engagement was recorded on the FDR.(5432 ft, CAS 209.5 kts, Hdg 210.5°,
Pitch 3.5°, Roll 53.0° right)
• At time 02:44:46, the Captain again states "Autopilot".
• At time 02:44:48, the F/O states "Overbank, Overbank, Overbank".(5276 ft,
CAS 222 kts, Hdg 235.9°, Pitch 3.5° nose down, Roll 68.9° right).
• 02 h 44 min 51 s, Master caution recorded,
• At time 02:44:52.8, the F/O again states "Overbank". (At 02:44:53, 4628 ft,
CAS 254 kts, Hdg 265°, Pitch 25.14° nose down, Roll 91.4° right)
• At time 02:44:53.4, the Captain responds "OK, come out".
• 02 h 44 min 54 s, aileron motion to the left during 9 s (4388 ft, CAS 264.5 kts,
Hdg 270°, Pitch 29.7° nose down, Roll 95.2° right)
• At time 02:44:56, the F/O states "No autopilot commander".(3820 ft, CAS 289.5
kts, Hdg 277°, Pitch 37° nose down, Roll 103.0° right)
• At time 02:44:58, the captain states "Autopilot". At the same time, the FDR
records a large aileron motion to the left and the airplane begins rolling back
towards wings level.(3068 ft, CAS 317.5 kts, Hdg 281°, Pitch 43.2° nose
down, Roll 111° right)
• At time 02:44:58.8, the observer states "Retard power, retard power, retard
• At time 02:45.01.5, the captain states "Retard power", and the FDR records
both engine throttles being moved to idle.(Pitch 42.4° nose down, Roll 39.2°
• At time 02:45:02, the CVR records the sound of the overspeed warning.(1320
ft, CAS 382.5 kts, Hdg 306.9°, Pitch 40.6° nose down, Roll 30.2° right)
• Recovery from severe Right Bank and nose down pitch continued
• At time 02:45:04.3, the captain states "Come out". Bank angle was 15.6°
right, pitch attitude was 30.5° nose down, altitude was 421 ft, and airspeed was 411.8 KIAS
At time 02:45:05, the CVR records a sound similar to ground proximity
warning (180 ft, CAS 416 kts, heading 315.7°, pitch 25.4° nose down, right
roll 19.3°),
• A/C impacted the water at about 02:45:06 with last recorded data:
- Bank Angle 19.3ْ to the right
- Pitch Angle 25.4ْ Nose down
- Vertical G. Load 3.96 (2.7)
- Speed 416Kts

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